Ipupiara: I was born into the Ureu-eu-wau-wau tribe. My mother was of the tribe; my father was a Portuguese man, So I'm fifty percent an indigenous man and fifty percent of the white people. My father wanted me to be a doctor and a priest of the Catholic church, but that was his dream. I was more interested in learning my indigenous language and being part of my community.

TMA: How were you raised?

I: My father was like the commander-in-chief of the family. He finally decided I should learn the language and all the rituals of my mother's tribe but that I should go to school and get a diploma.

TMA: So you had to do both.

I: Yes. Even today, I'm living in two different dimensions, two different realities. I have to shape-shift to the Western world where I live with its telephones, TVs, elevators, cars . . . but I have to shape-shift to a different world where we don't have any such commodities. It's just a matter of going back and forth. I think I do this pretty good!

TMA: How much is left of a world where there are no telephones? How much of the world is still indigenous the way your people were?

I: It's unbelievable. I think only eight or ten percent. I go to Brazil every year, and one year I returned to find satellite dishes all around my village. I'm not against progress, but it's terrible to see beautiful knowledge being wiped out. There's no way to stop this. The only thing I can do is to help them to be integrated in this new world where we have Walkmans and watch TV. One of the things they ask me is, "Can you get me a generator to turn on a TV so we can watch some programs?" If I cannot stop progress from going to my village, I can encourage the people to keep the language and the traditions. That's important. The impact is so huge -- when they learn the white man's way, they prefer that way.

My mother and father said, you have to learn the white man's way. I went to the university, got my Ph.D. in biology and anthropology, and I'm integrated into this new world, this new culture. But I'm just maybe one in 1,000 who keeps my traditions. My wife is also a native woman -- from the highlands of Peru -- and speaks Spanish and English. At home, we speak the native language because it's the only way to keep the tradition.

Working as a member of the Dream Change Coalition (DCC), I found a place where I can really help people to change their dream, to be more Earth-honoring. This is the main issue. People are not Earth-honoring. They would rather destroy than preserve.

TMA: For the most part, that's out of ignorance.

I: But you know, it's terrible. When I go to into schools, the children think I'm a cannibal and I might have my nose pierced and wear hair feathers. When they see me with glasses and looking like their daddy or their uncle, they say, "You look more like a professor than an indigenous. I thought all the indigenous were naked." They've got the wrong idea.

TMA: I think it's extraordinary and generous of the indigenous shamans to come out to the developed world and share their knowledge. I've always believed it's imperative that they do so because the developed world needs the technology -- if you'll pardon the use of that word -- that you have.

I: There's something going on, Guy. This Western world is waking up to a new era. The pachacucha's coming. By the year 2000 -- I don't know if you've heard about the prophecies of the pachacucha. It's when the eagle from the north will be flying together with the condor from the south. The condor from the south will be sharing wisdom and the eagle from the north is going to be sharing power. Those two sacred birds are going to be flying together, and that's what's happening today. I was encouraged by my elders to come to this country. I love this country because I was welcomed here. Unfortunately, I think they accept me because I have a Ph.D. after my name. Someday they will have to accept me as Ipupiara.

I've been doing some work for the White House. I was a private teacher for Chelsea. She's a really wonderful girl. She was very interested in pharmaceutical drugs from the rainforest and together we did a project for her school. I was privileged to teach this young lady. She was really focused and put a lot of input into learning. I saw that day that part of the prophecy was being accomplished. The condor from the south was teaching the eagle from the north. She was getting my wisdom and she was sharing her power. Then people invited me to put on some workshops. The flyer they wanted to use read "Ipupiara from the rainforests of Brazil, consultant and advisor for the White House...". I said, "I want people to come and see me, Ipupiara, not the private teacher of Chelsea Clinton." I don't want to be like Mickey Mouse in a Disneyworld.

Unfortunately, there are titles in this modern world. I think that's one thing that has to be changed. I want to love you and respect you as a human being. I really don't care if you are the top guy at Lightworks, I just want to see the man, because what counts for me is your spirit. Your spirit dwells in your body, and what I want to see is your heart, not your position or your title.

TMA: Talk a little about the Dream Change Coalition, what you're doing with it.

I: I feel very honored to be part of the Dream Change Coalition. Eight years ago when I got to this country, I had the privilege of meeting John Perkins [who founded the Coalition]. I keep telling him he was born in the wrong place.

The first day I met John, I asked him to do a ceremony with me as my brother. He accepted. Since that day we are brothers, and since that day I have been working as a member of the Dream Change Coalition. With John Perkins I have done a lot of workshops. I've been invited to a lot of TV and radio stations to give talks about the program the Coalition has. They have one beautiful idea -- to change the dream. I was seeking a place in this country where I could really help to share the dream and change it. It is making people to be more earth-honoring. The most important thing in being a member of the Dream Change Coalition is that we are agents to change the dream.

TMA: What does this mean for an individual? What is it that needs to change?

I: It's like this. In this modern world it's important that you have a luxurious house, a brand new car, the fastest one -- but how about the environment where you live? People don't care about people. They don't even know the names of their neighbors. They don't share. They just want to show off. To change the dream is to show people that having a big savings account is good, but there's something more important, and that's to be an earth-honoring people. To have a brand new car is okay if you work hard, but how about being connected to Mother Earth. How about being connected to the stones, and the trees and the animals that surround us.

I say we have to teach people to think differently. I have computers. I use the Internet, but I'm an earth-honoring person because I have connections to Mother Earth, I pray, I hug trees, I talk to the animals, I go through the bushes -- I feel good. I have friends who come to see me to learn something from me that they don't have here.

TMA: Do you, in the function of a shaman, journey for people?

I: Yes, I do so regularly. Yesterday I spent four hours of my resting time doing ceremonies for a group of six people. In this society, this is what really counts. In this society, if I do work for you, the first question that you ask me is "How much is it?" Because in this culture you have to pay. But in my culture, a lot of things have to be shared. A healing and a teaching is priceless. When I was being driven back to my house, the woman who was driving turned around and said, "You know, I've never felt so happy in my whole life. Thanks to you, I'm feeling much, much better. Now I really know what I was missing." And this was my reward. I was trying to teach her to have all that she had but also to be earth-honoring. That's what the main issue is. You can have your car. I'm not against that.

TMA: I think what you're saying, and I completely agree with it, is that there needs to be a combination of the two. It's too late to go back to the indigenous ways. That's not going to happen.

I: Now I have to teach my people. They have been influenced, they've caught the virus, you might say. What I have to do is to make them integrated in the new society -- they have to keep the language, the traditions, and not being ashamed of being born indigenous. That's one of the things I'm very proud of. I never deny that I'm indigenous. I'm proud of it, and I'm also proud to be here.

There are things I can do that you can do -- I'm not better than you. You too could speak ten different dialects if you want. The world is as you dream it.

There are two different sides: dreams and fantasies. Everybody has fantasies. I have my own fantasies, but I don't put that much energy into them. I just enjoy them. I put all my power into my dreams to make them come true, because the world is as you dream it. If you dream that you are poor, you will be poor all your whole life through. If I want to change my dream, I have to put all the energy I have into that dream and I'll change the dream . . . because the world is as I dream it.

TMA: And your dream is to help others to change their dream.

I: That's my main issue. I'm learning in this culture to be different. I'm learning a new reality. I'm from a culture where money has no value; we trade, we barter things. In that culture, numbers are just one, two and three. We don't have four, five, six or seven. More than three is "many." Money for me has had no value, but now I'm learning that if I want to live in this new jungle, I have to learn how to deal with money.

I'm talking about people who only five years ago had their first contact with white people. I returned to that village where I was before, and the impact that these people suffered was really hard for me to put into words. They don't want to be wild any longer. They want to have all the facilities that the white man has brought to them.

TMA: The only way to keep them as they were is to keep them in a preserve, like a zoo. And you can't do that.

I: Right. I cannot put them into a cage. What I can do is to use the knowledge that they used to have there, the sacred ceremony, how to be earth-honoring and how to integrate those two things to live in two different realities.

TMA: Are you teaching people from the developed world to do ceremonies and to journey?

I: Oh yes, I have two groups right now, beginners and advanced, people who are interested not only in learning the ceremonies but in learning the language. They want to pronounce the sacred words in my own language.

TMA: In your workshop with Art Roffey, what will you be doing?

I: I will be doing rituals and ceremonies for the rain forest. I will be teaching shamanism, talking about herbs; I'll bring some sacred herbs from the rainforest in Brazil. My workshop basically is focused on rituals from the rainforest. Most of the rituals will be earth-honoring ones for when we worship Mother Earth, when we worship the stones, the trees, the animal kingdom.

Thank you so much for having this interview with me. I'm glad to have you on the other side of the [telephone] line. I pray and I hope and I wish that everything will be just fine for you and your family, and may the Great Spirit bless you.